Debunking B+A=J

A continuation of the #TheoryKillers series this time looking at Brandon and Ashara Dayne being Jons Parents. I have read numerous posts about Brandon and Ashara being the parents of Jon Snow and It doesn't make sense.

Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne

Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne I believe had something I believe Brandon is the one who "Dishonored" Ashara Dayne at Harrenhall not Ned as some believe. Brandon Stark is exactly Asharas Type since she seemed interested in Oberyn Martell and Jon Connington both are handsome and Charming men. Its very possible that Ashara and Brandon kept seeing each other after Harrenhall however I dont buy that Jon is their son for many reasons.

Timeline

The obvious and a gigantic hole in this theory is the Timeline. Brandon wouldve been dead too long before Jon was born to be his father. Now It is claimed by several people that Brandon and Ashara Slept together while Brandon was in the Black Cells of Kings Landing but I dont buy this at all. Brandon Stark had just threatened the life the Prince. I doubt they let anyone in to see him. Aerys was paranoid he isnt taking any chances that a visitor might help Brandon in some way. Aerys isnt risking anyone helping Brandon Escape from the cells. Now While its True that Ned was visited by Varys it should be noted Varys had a disguise and he was already working as a jailer so he could visit people secretly and theres no evidence Ashara had any of this. I dont think the guards wouldve ever let Ashara see Brandon in any circumstance.

Even if they had slept together the timeline still doesnt fit we know that Roberts Rebellion lasted about a year and started after Brandon was killed alongside his father at Kings Landing. Now Jon has been confirmed by George RR Martin to be about 8 to 9 months older than Daenerys who was born at about 9 months after the sack of Kings Landing. So Even with Preston Jacobs moving the timeline around to make this theory fit more theres still a problem with Jon being 3 months older than he should. Now its possible to a newborn off as 3 months older than they are but it isnt likely and I would say near impossible if youre trying to convince a woman who just had a child that is supposed to be similar in age yet a little older that the child who is 3 months older is actually younger. It doesnt fit the Timeline Brandon Stark was dead too long before Jon was born for him to be Jons Father.

Ned lies to Catelyn to protect her?

So Ned lies to Catelyn to prevent her from knowing her fiance cheated on her. Instead he tells her that her husband cheated on her that doesnt make any sense one is going to hurt just as much as the other. It probally wouldve been better for Ned and Jon if he just told Cat the truth if Ashara was his mother Thats what Cat already believes so it cant hurt anymore than it already does and her having closure might make her feel better.

Starfall Succession Crisis

There are some who say that the Daynes made Ned take Jon because being Asharas son then he wouldve complicated The sucession is Starfall. But Ashara isnt the heir her older brother (cant his name) is the father of Eldric Dayne who is the current lord of Starfall. Also while Bastards are treated much better in Dorne and theres less stigma they still generally dont inherit so theres no reason for all of this.

Ned Gets Angry With Catelyn

Some people point to when Cat asked Ned about Ashara he proclaimed that she never ask him about Jons Mother again. That she hadnt asked about jons mother ned just blurted that out now but the context was there Ned knew she was asking about Jons mother she wasnt fooling him. Ned doesnt want anyone speculating on Jons mother. We see this when Robert asks Ned about Wylla.

"You know the one I mean your bastards mother" - Robert Baratheon

"Her name was Wylla, and I would Sooner not speak of Her" - Ned Stark

"Wylla yes... You never told me what she looked like " - Robert Baratheon

Neds Mouth tighted in anger. "Nor Will I leave it be Robert for the love you say you bear me" - Ned Stark

We see Neds mouth tightens in anger when Robert mentions Wylla so hes angry when someone gets close to speculating on Jons mother just as much as when Cat asked him of Ashara.

This Quote From George

"Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen, and Tyrion Lannister their names?

"Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned" - George RR Martin

In this quote we see That George says Jon was named by Ned when it is customary for a Mother to name the child. Now if Ashara was Jons mother why didnt she name him? She didnt die right after having him she wouldve been there for months with him and she didnt name him? Most people assume Ashara is still running around somewhere so seems she wouldve named her child or went to see him in disguise or something. Mothers usually dont abandon their children.

Why is this a secret?

Theres no reason to keep this a secret. Jon would be a bastard he wouldnt be the heir to Winterfell so no risk there. Ned keeps the secret so fiercely because Jons life depended on it as Robert has pledged to kill all Dragonspawn.

Cersei mentioned Ashara Dayne to Ned?

Thats true but Cersei doesnt know anything she has only heard the rumors of Ned and Ashara having a romance and repeats it to Ned the same thing Catelyn did.

Ashara and Brandon Married?

There are claims that Ashara and Brandon married and that why everything was kept secret because if Jon was Brandons legit heir then he would be the heir of Winterfell not Ned not Robb. However theres no proof Ashara and Brandon Wed and it seems unlikely being that he was engaged to Catelyn Stark. Brandon told Catelyn they would marry next time he saw her so doesnt seem like he was already married.

Ned never thinks about Ashara Dayne.

If Jon was Asharas son shouldnt Ned think about Ashara at some point? Now I know Ned hasnt thought of Rhaegar in many years true but then again he hasnt thought of Ashara at all in relation to Jon. When Ned thinks of Roberts bastards his mind drifts to Jon and then to Rhaegar and Lyanna but why would he associate them together? When ned thinks of Jon he should think of Ashara we should have some mention of Ashara in relation to Jon and yet we never do.

I mean there are some things that seem a bit weird true. I mean the Daynes seem to like Ned even though he killed Arthur Dayne. It seems odd that they would like him just for returning his sword back to them. However that being said the sword Dawn is much more than a family Sword. Dawn is the entire identity of House Dayne. Its their Sigil all of Westeros knows that thr Daynes have Dawn thats why theyre famous thats why the Sword Of The Morning is so envied because of the Sword. What Are The Daynes Without Dawn? Then there is the fact that the Daynes seem to believe that Wylla is Jon Snows mother. Ned Dayne says that Wylla is Jons mother and thats what he has heard likely from Allyria Dayne his older sister. Now it appears Wylla may have been at the Tower of Joy and a lot of why Ned went back to Starfall couldve been he was returning Wylla to the Daynes. Maybe one of the reasons why the Daynes love Ned so much is they believe he fathered this child and instead of leaving Wylla with it like most wouldve done he is going to take full responsibility amd raise this child in Winterfell now this may have earned the Daynes respect for Ned. Or for all we know the Daynes love Ned because he told them about Jon being Rhaegar and Lyannas son and how he was going to raise him as his own in Winterfell sacrificing his own reputation as being honorable in order to protect this child.

I dont see Ashara being Jons mother. The only reason she comes up in relation to Jon is because of Neds Rumored romance with Ashara and He returned home with a baby right after returning from Starfall causing people to speculate and rumors followed. Catelyn and Cersei have heard the rumors and they repeat them to Ned. There isnt any proof that Ashara Dayne is Jons father at all.

I know the Daynes are important but that doesnt mean they have to be the parents of Dany or Jon they can be important in any number of different ways. The Daynes could know something about the original War For The Dawn, Azor Ahai, and the White Walkers which is what I believe thats pretty important stuff more important than being a characters baby mama.

As for what happened to Ashara I lean towards her actually commiting suicide. I mean her brother was dead, her lover was dead, her baby was stillborn, her best friend Elia was dead, Elias children murdered in brutal ways all in a short time frame. It isnt too hard to see how given all these tragedies she would just commit suicide rough year. Some point to them never finding her body as proof she is still alive, while thats true they also didnt find Daemon Targaryens body either. He took a swan dive into water as well I mean its not like they have the equipment to search the bottom of the water.

Show Evidence

D&D Correctly Guessed Jons Mother

Now of course everyone has heard how D&D both answered correctly when they were asked who Jon snows mother was. George said they were right, he has confirmed they were right.

"On the parentage of Jon Snow: Benioff and Weiss later said that during that meeting you asked them who they think Jon Snow's mother was, which is one of the earliest — and seemingly one of the central — mysteries in A Song of Ice and Fire.

"I did ask that at one point, just to see how closely they'd read the text" - George RR Martin

"Did they get it right?"

"THEY ANSWERED CORRECTLY" - George RR Martin

So D&D answered right of course they did why would he have let them do the show if they didnt? Keep in mind as far as George knows at this point theyre going to do a close adaptation of his story and wont change much and the show wont the books at all.

Alfie Allen Was Told About Jons Parents By George RR Martin himself

"You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow's real parents were, and he told me. I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation. It will all come to fruition eventually. The whole thing with all the fight over proper succession is partly inspired by the War of the Roses in the late 1400s, and back then, to ensure pedigree, the monarchies were kind of inbred. It's definitely fucked up, but it definitely happened back then, so that's why there's incest with the Targaryen line. It's toned down, though" - Alfie Allen 2013

I love Alfie but he has a big mouth if the show did anything different than what George Told them he wouldve said something. It should be noted that he said Jons parentage was kinda a Luke Skywalker type situation. This has led to the popularizing of the Twins theory and Jon and Meera however it should he said that he only mentions Luke not Leia so theres no twins (Sorry Fred Meera isnt part of the equation). So lets look at the Luke and Jon connection

A. Both were raised by their Uncles

B. Both Mothers died in childbirth

C. Both have been led to believe their fathers are different than who they are.

D. Both have these great destinies ahead of them

E. Both are a little whiny mopey Teenagers (Its True accept it)

F. Both may use swords that put off light and or heat as weapons.

This also has me wondering if Howland Reed could be Jons Yoda, I mean short guy lives in the swamp knows magic seems to fit.

Now the second part of the Statement is interesting Because he talks about Incest and Royal Families in relation to Jon, so it would seem hes elluding to Jon being a Targaryen.

Elio Garcia And Linda Antonsson

Elio has been writing about R+L=J for years now its what he and Linda believe firmly. Now since Elio and Linda are friends with George and he trusted them enough to let them write the History of Westeros as well as giving them the manuscript for A Dance With Dragons for them to proofread before he published it Im guessing theyre pretty knowledgeable about Asoiaf and George joked that they know more about it than he did. So we know George has told them things, we know that there were several things that they didnt publish in The World Of Ice and Fire that because it revealed too much about the novels. They are both firm R+L=J ers.

"Favorite theories R+L=J is the obvious one. It's not really a theory in our minds, we're that confident in it" - Elio And Linda

So it seems like Elio and Linda believe R+L=J isnt even a theory but a fact theyre that confident in it.

"Out of All the Mysteries in A Song Of Ice and Fire Which one do you most want to be revealed?"

"The Big One is Obviously Jon Snows parentage but we feel that is a done deal. The mysteries are the hows and they whys, the circumstances around it. I mean the answer itself we are certain we know the answer it is the most common theory. But theres a lot of things around it lots of bits and pieces that have to fit together" - Elio and Linda

"So kinda the circumstances of what happened at the tourney of Harrenhall? And the motivations of Rhaegar and Lyanna?"

"Yeah, Like why did things end up how they did thats the mystery" - Elio and Linda

We hear Elio and Linda say that jon snows parents everyone knows, its a done deal, its the most popular theory. The most popular theory of course is R+L=J that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna son.

So we have D&D correctly guessing the mother and putting R+L=J easter eggs in the first season, hinting at it in season 5 and ultimately revealing it is true for the show in season 6. We have Elio and Linda blogging for years about R+L=J Elio writing officially having a post examining all the theories for Jons parents and coming to the conclusion that R+L=J is correct. We have Elio and Linda saying they think the parentage issue is solved and that its the most common theory. I mean D&D and Elio and Linda know George, theyve talked to him about plot points if anyone knows besides George who Jons parents are is these people and they all think Rhaegar and Lyanna are jons parents.

George trusted D&D with the biggest secret of all and thats how the entire story ends, the end of the story arcs for every character. I think the Parentage of Jon Snow "The Central Mystery of the story" is too big for them to change. I know youre saying what about aegon they left him out I think its because he wont be important to the endgame though i love him he isnt sticking around too long. They did the children created the white walkers, and the origin of Hodor and that appears like it will be in the books so there still doing book stuff. Like D&D have said "Different paths to the same ending" God i feel weird defending D&D.

Would George Change the Books?

Seen this one floating around that George may have changed his mind when he saw everyone figured out R+L=J but lets just let the man speak for himself

"Ive been Planting all these clues that the butler did it, then youre halfway through a series and suddenly thousands of people have figured out that the butler did it and then you say that the Chambermaid did it? No you cant do that. Ive wrestled with this issue because I do want to surprise my readers and take them in different directions they did not see coming. But I cant change the plans. So what do I do then? Do I change it? Ive wrestled with that and I came to the conclusion that changing it would be a disaster because the clues are there. You cant do that. So im just going to go ahead some of my readers dont read the message boards which thankfully is hundrends of thousands of then will still be surprised and others will say See I said that 4 Years Ago Im Smarter than you all" - George R.R. Martin

Now it seems that the theory he is talking about wasnt too hard to solve if thousands had figured it out. It seems its particularly well known among people on Message boards and Forums. Its most likely R+L=J which is on every message board.

"Do you use to check the Internet forums in order to see the predictions made by your fans"

"I am aware of the principal Internet forums about and I really used to look at the American and English groups. Nowadays, the most important site is Westeros, but I started to feel uncomfortable and I thought it would be a better idea not to get to these sides. The fans use to come up with theories; lots of them are just speculative but some of them are in the right way. Before the Internet, one reader could guess the ending you wanna do for your novel, but the other 10,000 wouldn’t know anything and they would be surprised. However, now, those 10,000 people use the Internet and read the right theories. They say: “Oh God, the butler did it!”, to use an example of a mystery novel. Then, you think: “I have to change the ending! The maiden would be the criminal!” To my mind that way is a disaster because if you are doing well you work, the books are full of clues that point to the butler doing it and help you to figure up the butler did it, but if you change the ending to point the maiden, the clues make no sense anymore; they are wrong or are lies, and I am not a liar.I ultimately thought I don’t wanna change anything. What I have to is that if one person figures out the ending and 10,000 people read it, they will doubt and still, a 100,000 people won’t see the post on the Internet and they will be surprised" - George RR Martin

We see once again that he says he wont change it.

We also see that he didnt think it was possible to change the story because the clues were already there all the clues pointing to Jon being Rhaegar and Lyannas son.

George doesnt sit down and try to write the most complex story he can he just writes and sure some things go in unexpected directions and theres surprises but hes not trying to be complex on purpose. George has often compared himself to an architect who starts from a base and builds up adding more things later on but the base is always the same. A writer runs into big trouble when they try to be complex the plot becomes convoluted and it leads to plotholes. A prime example would be the Dark Knight Returns Nolan tried to be complex and Ambitious and it led to many plotholes and things that just dont make sense.

For those that say George doesnt have such easy plots in his story well keep in Mind that his editor Anne Groell figured out correctly who Jons mother was even before reading the first book. She proof read the Manuscript for the book and afterwards he asked her who Jons Mother was and she answered correctly so it doesnt seem like it was hard to figure out.

Theres not much proof for Jon being Brandon or Ashara child much less them both being their parents. Theres really no proof they saw each other after Harrenhall all we have is Georges Quote about Ashara not being nailed to the wall at Starfall maybe they met up maybe they didnt. I dont buy that Brandon was in love with Ashara though she may have thought he loved her maybe but Catelyn thought that as well, Lady Dustin seems to think that Brandon never wanted to marry Cat and wanted her well since last time they saw each other Brandom promised to marry Cat when he returned that doesnt seem true. Im sure Brandon told lots of girls lots of things that they may have believed thats what Playas do. It reminds me of the Quote that Ned has about Robert promising a woman so much a night and forgetting her come morning.

As for the theory that Brandon and Ashara are Danys parents, I mean that theory cant be taken seriously at all and doesnt really deserve to be mentioned.

Another thing saying that Lyanna being Jons mother is too obvious and that its actually Ashara Dayne is completely ridiculous. Ashara Dayne is the far more obvious choice for Jons mother when you read the books. Ashara Dayne is Blatantly mentioned as a possibilty for Jons mother alongside Wylla. Lyanna is never mentioned as a possibility you have to come to that concusion by looking between the lines as opposed to just hearing Cersei say that Ashara was Jons mother. Or Catelyn thinking about Jons mother and asking The too obvious part is a terrible argument if you put forward Ashara is the mother.

Thats some of my reasoning behind not believing that Brandon and Ashara are Jons Parents. There was a second half to this Blog about R+L=D or Rhaegar and Lyanna being Danys parents but There wasnt any room and I had to make it an entirely different blog but obviously R+L=D and B+A=J is usually connected in the fandom.

Thanks for reading..

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